NORTH KOREA

Interview of Pierre Rigoulot with De Staandard and Le Libre Belgique

On 15 January, the French Publishing House Buchet-Chastel published Pierre Rigoulot's latest book "La Core du Nord, Etat voyou" (North Korea, a Rogue State). The author was interviewed by numerous newspapers, magazines, radio and TV stations in France and in Belgium. It is to be hoped that a publishing house in the United States, in South Korea or in Japan will translate that book and make it available to wider audiences around the world.

Why Saddam and not the other one?

Conversation with Pierre Rigoulot, author of "Core du Nord, Etat voyou" (1)

De Standaard (07.02.2003) - Maybe the West must take a tougher stand towards North Korea. How productive were the millions of dollars spent on delivery of food and other sorts of aid? Nothing, it was all hot air. Are we not increasing the danger to the 21 million North Koreans who, according to the WFP, live on half of the minimum daily food intake? "Our financial help contributes to the stability of a regime which keeps its people in a state of famine," says Pierre Rigoulot, author of the recently published book "Core du Nord, Etat voyou", "because we think the reunification of both Koreas would be too costly".

Catherine Vuylsteke

De Morgen : It seems that only a few countries get the amount of foreign aid as North Korea, whether it is food to combat the persistent famine or the construction of electrical plants as a reward for stopping the nuclear programme and the delivery of oil as long as they are not operational. But what can we see? Two million people have already died (this from a total population of 21 million) and it is not sure that the food reaches the neediest people because the international donors are not given a single chance to verify its receipt. Moreover, the military nuclear industry has not come to a halt, as the regime itself admitted it in October 2002. This is also substantiated by the export of rockets to Pakistan, Syria, Libya, Iran, and other countries such as Yemen which is the main source of income for the regime. One can wonder how this is all possible.

Pierre Rigoulot: That is right. I think that we must not break off all contacts or interrupt the negotiations but, at the same time, we must not be na?ve. We must understand that the objective of the negotiations for the North Koreans is to prolong the life of the regime. The longer they last, the more advantageous it is for them. But what concretely? Certainly, financial promises on the Western side in return for hot air, for promises which are more easily broken than made. I think that we must claim much more concrete services in return for the diplomatic recognition granted to the regime by the EU. Think of the system of labour camps where whole families live with their children. What crimes have been committed by those children who must experience and see cruelty every day? Their father or their mother is an alleged "opponent" to the regime, that is all. We must claim the release of children from the camps.

Another point is the delivery of food. Do you understand that the authorities do not allegedly manage to work out an evaluation of the needs that can be checked, that they cannot allow the monitoring of the aid so that we can know whether or not it reaches those who are really in need? Moreover, if we cannot make any verification, how can we refute the reports saying that the major part of the food goes to the army and the officials while the average North Korean has to live on half of the minimum daily food requirement as is fixed by the World Health Organisation?

De Morgen : But what can be done if the regime remains inflexible and rejects these things, as it has been the case until now, and which led to the withdrawal of NGOs such as Action contre la Faim (Action Against Hunger), MSF (Doctors Without Borders) or Medecins du Monde (Doctors of the World)? Is this not the case of the population again picking up the pieces?

Pierre Rigoulot: You are right. It is difficult to take up such a stand because in one way or another, ordinary people will suffer from such a decision. But I have talked to many North Koreans who had fled over the Chinese border and not one man or woman has ever received international help. Of course, it does not necessarily mean that it is not secretly mixed with the food distributed by the authorities because they do not want to admit it officially. It is probably the way they proceeded. However, the regime would never recognise that its citizens can only survive thanks to foreign aid. How could Kim Jong-Il, then, keep alive his ideology of self-sufficiency?

But even if this halt has consequences for the population, you cannot ignore that the aid first prolongs the existence of the regime. At the same time, paradoxically, it prolongs the persistence of the famine which is not due to a natural catastrophe, as Pyongyang tries to claim, but to systematically wrong choices. From the beginning, the economy of North Korea has always malfunctioned. The external debt has been increasing since the 1970s. This country should not have focussed on self-sufficiency and heavy industry but on light industry which would have provided work and foreign currency. But what can we see now? The chronic oil shortage led to the cutting down of all the trees and enormous soil erosion (and consequently flooding). The irrigation system, which is so vital for the rice farming, is in such a bad condition and so badly looked after that it cannot be reactivated without big investments. But these are lacking.

De Morgen: In your book, you do not seem to be a supporter of the South Korean "sunshine policy" which means grosso modo generous aid, positive involvement and non-provocation.

Pierre Rigoulot: Yes. Outgoing president Kim Dae-jungs policy has failed. It cost hundreds of millions of dollars and there was hardly any return. Think, for example, of the trips to the Kumgang Mountain of rights of which were bought by the Hyundai company. Twelve million dollars per month go directly to the North Korean regime and that has not improved the life of the ordinary citizen. What was the result? As many so-called guides fined South Korean tourists for straying away from the beaten track or for the slightest litter, and as a young South Korean girl spent three days in jail for making a critical remark, the South Koreans enthusiasm for such expensive trips is very limited. Consequently, Hyundais debts started increasing and the South Korean government rushed to cover them at the level of 1.4 million dollars per month. Taxes used to pay the North Korean regime. But why?

Now, look at the situation of the North Koreans. They lack food and medicine. They have been underfed for so long that they suffer from a serious shortage of energy. Add to this the total lack of freedom. They may not travel C the situation now looks better, but only because the persistent crisis has corrupted and undermined the regime itself. There is, therefore, more chaos and corruption is easier. Freedom of expression does not exist either: the slightest criticism is punished by a term to be served in a labour camp. Religious freedom does not exist at all but there is that terrible personality cult around Kims dynasty: 30,000 statues in a country as small as a handkerchief C and the propaganda which is always active.

The best option for the North Koreans would be the fall of the regime but I think that the South Koreans really want to avoid such an outcome because they fear the huge financial effort that would be entailed by the reunification of both parts of the peninsula. Between 200 and 1,000 billion, as it is estimated. Compare this with the German reunification, the economical cost of which was already very heavy. There, the East Germans only represented a fifth of the total population; in this case, it is a third. And whereas the gross domestic product of West Germany was three times higher than the one of East Germany, the one of South Korea is ten times higher than in North Korea.

De Morgen: Is the reunification prepared seriously in the south?

Pierre Rigoulot: No, not at all and it is not only a matter of costs. On the one hand, North Korean defectors who criticise the South Korean sunshine policy C people like the former North Korean party ideologist who say that this policy only strengthens the regime - are silenced. On the other hand, there is also the heritage from the past: the right-wing military regimes which were in power until the 1980s totally demonised North Korea. The military does not find favour at all with the public - this explains, among other things, that former dissident Kim Dae-jung could guarantee the election of his protg to the presidency in December 2002. And this is also the case for their philosophy: North Korea is consequently not demonised any more but is presented in rather a favourable light. In fact, there is mainly a psychological block; people do not know what to think and the issue is more or less taboo, even in intellectual circles.

De Morgen: What are the chances to see the regime fall?

Pierre Rigoulot: It is difficult to say. Who predicted the fall of the Wall? But there are several difficulties. First: a peoples rebellion. Not easy, due to the lack of freedom and, especially, of calories. Moreover, do not forget that propaganda is omnipresent and constantly tells people that they live in paradise and that it is much worse everywhere else. This seems unacceptable but for people who have little access to information about the outside world and who are part of this circus, it is another matter. We must also shade the picture: since the beginning of the famine in the mid-nineties, some 200,000 to 300,000 people have fled to China. But in the last few months, the border controls have been dramatically strengthened and, moreover, thousands of them have been forcibly repatriated.

The bulk of the refugees who are not caught are helped in China by Protestant networks which have recently suffered a crackdown by the Chinese authorities. After six months, they go back home to help their families financially. These people also come back with information, at least with some impressions about China, where life is so much better. This is an area where the West could be more active: the distribution of information to North Koreans in their own language.

Another path leading to changes is advocated by some Western donors: economic reforms. It is always referred to Kim Jong-ils travels to China and Russia to prove that he is open to changes. But if you talk with the Chinese, they will tell you that it is not so easy. Kim may be interested in changes but he mainly fears that any change may threaten the longevity of his regime. In this regard, what happened to the former Soviet Union is a good example. Very well, this did not happen in China: the economy was successfully liberalised while the one-party system was maintained. But the economic situation in China was not so bad as in North Korea. We still have to wait to see to what extent Kims enthusiasm for changes is sincere.

(Translation Dutch-English by HRWF Int.)

(1) North Korea, A Rogue State, Ed. Buchet-Chastel, Paris, 2003, 136 p.

Illustration : A poster published by the North Korean Central News Agency illustrates the military battlefield of the communist state (Photo Reuters)

Greek mission to Pyongyang

1. The 15 Member States of the European Union wait to start acting as mediators in the North Korean nuclear crisis
2. For Pierre Rigoulot, dialogue is essential and for Europe there is nothing exotic about it.

Philippe Paquet

Le Libre Belgique (28.01.2003) - At their meeting on Monday (27 January) in Brussels, the Ministers of Foreign Affairs of the European Union entrusted the Greek Presidency with the task of preparing a mission of good offices to North Korea with the participation of the EU High Representative of Common Foreign Policy, Javier Solana. He had already visited Pyongyang together with the European Union Commissioner for External Relations, Chris Patten, and the Swedish Prime Minister, Goran Persson, in May 2001 when the Union, in establishing diplomatic relations with the Stalinist regime, wanted to encourage the rapprochement reached between the two Koreas a year earlier.

Now it is for the European Union to ultimately play the role of a mediator in the conflict opposing North Korean to the international community as regards its clandestine nuclear programme. As much wished for by Pyongyang as by Seoul, such European involvement is equally hailed by a number of experts and by the French Pierre Rigolout as one of them. Following the publication of the testimony of a former political prisoner, he has devoted another book to the North Korean "rogue state".

"The problem posed by North Korea is no longer just a problem of regional security. It affects the international security due to the North Korean arms sale to the Middle East, in particular. Therefore, for the European Union this is not an exotic question", he says.

Though he admits he does not know what is the best way to deal with a regime so "special" as is the regime of the "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-Il, Pierre Rigoulot wants to believe in the virtues of a dialogue, which, according to him, has the advantage to teach North Koreans "new habits". He, however, warns against the art of negotiation cultivated in Pyongyang.

"The North Koreans receive aid for accepting to open negotiations. They receive aid for continuing negotiations. They receive aid for not breaking down negotiations. Ultimately, the subject of the negotiations does not matter!"

Are the Western countries not in the position of prisoners in a game for fools? For Pierre Rigoulot, it is essential to make aid conditional; conditions that are nevertheless "acceptable" to Pyongyang. "The question is whether or not to establish diplomatic relations with this country, but what can be done there. What can the diplomatic relations bring to the 22-million population of North Korea? The balance sheet up to present is not convincing, but it is not a reason to break off relations. France has adopted a good stand, which is not usual, by demanding reciprocity: it wants a gesture on the side of Pyongyang with regard to security or human rights as the price for its recognition."

Status for the refugees

Pressure should be equally exerted on the allies of North Korea and China, in particular. Pierre Rigoulot also calls for a status for the refugees who flow into the Chinese territory, where they are ruthlessly hunted down. While women are sold to networks of prostitution, men are sent back to North Korea where they are under risk of being sent to a prison, labour camp or death. Before the intensification of repression on both sides of the border, it has been estimated that 80 percent of the people who cross over into China go back to their homes. "They are in search of food, money and most of all, information on the external world", which can spur the reform of the system.

Now that this source of information is drying out, Pierre Prigoulot urges the international radio stations to broadcast more actively towards North Korea.